I’m sorry, I can’t just let this go without adding to it… Snape called Lily a horrible racial slur and then expected her to turn around and just forgive him, first of all. Meanwhile he and his friends are out tormenting other students with the same blood status as her. So tell me, Severus…why is it okay to treat one muggle born different than all the others? Just because you have a crush on her? Now let’s look at adult Severus Snape and his disgusting treatment of YOUNG CHILDREN, strictly based on who their parents are… Forget the way he treats Harry for the simple fact that he’s James’ son. But NEVILLIE. The only reason he has to treat Neville so poorly is that the prophecy could have been about him instead, and had it been that way Lily would not have died. But had Lily not been targeted, Snape would have never switched sides and would have continued being a death eater. I have no sympathy for Snape or his supporters. I don’t care how much of an ass 15 year old James Potter was in the SINGULAR AND BIASED MEMORY THAT WE GOT TO SEE. James grew out of it. He changed. And there are many other references from other characters that support that he was a good person. Severus was not at any point. Even as a young child he did things to people Lily cared about and Lily didn’t like his behavior.
JILY ALL THE WAY.
Also, the hatred Severus and James shared was not on equal measure.
Snape
wanted James dead. Literally. He didn’t mind James and Harry being
killed by Voldemort at all. He just didn’t trust Voldemort to keep his
promise not to kill Lily. That’s the ONLY reason he went to Dumbledore.
James
saved Snape’s life, when Sirius pulled that ‘prank’ of telling him
about Remus. Endangering his own life in doing so. (Because he couldn’t
have changed into a stag in the tight corridor to the Shrieking Shack.)
He didn’t want Snape dead. He just couldn’t fucking stand that stupid
racist dick, who was so lucky to call Lily his friend and spoiled his
chances of being friends with her as well.
And guess what: James and Lily might have lived, if James had not
saved Snape. If Snape had died, noone would have told Voldemort about
this stupid prophecy. (And Dumbledore was already onto Voldy’s Horcruxes
by that time, so there’s that.)
So I’m just going to chime in that I like Snily…
Something about the dynamic of the two makes me happy. She could have made him better, and he could have challenged her.
I definitely agree with the ship hating. You don’t have to ship it. But you also don’t have go continuously hate on it. You can just leave it alone and itwould be fine. Jily is a good ship but you can ship Lily with Sev if you want. That is your choice on what you ship. But the ship hating needs to stop. Snily is just as a good ship just ad Jily is. Now. Do i really Snily or Jily no because im too gay for that. Im kidding. But yes I ship the ships. I just don’t get why everyone is always hating on Snape. Yes hes done some bad stuff. He done good. That doesn’t mean hes an evil bastard that you all put him out to be. Human. That is what Snape is. Humans make mistakes. Thats what you don’t get. Honestly. James has made mistakes. Sirius has made mistakes. Remus. Peter. Lily. Everyone has made mistakes. Now. Im not saying hey. You should like Snape. But ill get @snapedefender to defend Snape more.
[deep sigh]
Severus was involved in the dark arts from a young age, he chose to believe in ideology that was filled with baseless hatred, he obsessed over a woman that didn’t want him, to the point where he was willing to have her husband and child MURDERED so he could have her to himself.
Snape wanted James dead. Literally. He didn’t mind James and Harry being killed by Voldemort at all. He just didn’t trust Voldemort to keep his promise not to kill Lily. That’s the ONLY reason he went to Dumbledore.
Show it to me!!!!! I want you to show me where Severus Snape says “yes, I want James and Harry to die” or gives any indication that he cares less about their lives than Lily’s. Or gives any indication that he thinks he’ll somehow “get” Lily if James dies? Because that doesn’t fucking happen? There’s nothing in the books that points to Snape wanting James and Harry to die.
You know what? If Snape had never gone to Dumbledore – then I might have understood your point. He knows that Voldemort doesn’t give a shit about James and that he’s going there to murder Harry. He knows that Voldemort won’t spare their lives even if he asks for them. (Hell, he was doing a hail mary just asking for Lily’s, one that was potentially at the cost of his own life considering he’s asking a racist to spare a muggleborn enemy.) If he had only asked Voldemort to spare Lily and hadn’t done anything else, your argument might have merit. But he goes to Dumbledore. He knows Dumbledore isn’t going to let James and Harry die! This is Dumbledore and he’s proven time and time again how much he cares about James’ life. Snape goes that extra mile not just to get assured protection for Lily, but protection for her entire family. The person who doesn’t believe him is DUMBLEDORE. The person who accuses him of just doing it to save Lily is DUMBLEDORE. Dumbledore is a biased source, my guys! He knows shit about Severus Snape, as he proves time and time again! His opinion on the matter isn’t objective evidence to Snape’s state of mind or motivations so stop using it as such!
While we’re talking about “objective evidence”…
I have no sympathy for Snape or his supporters. I don’t care how much of an ass 15 year old James Potter was in the SINGULAR AND BIASED MEMORY THAT WE GOT TO SEE.
Honey boo, pensieve memories aren’t biased. If they showed us the memory from the actual mind of the person witnessing events – complete with all their emotions and feelings about the event – then they would be biased. But they don’t. They show us the situation from an outside perspective, a distant third-person point-of-view that by its very nature is unbiased. The only biases are the ones the person goes into the pensieve with.
While we’re on the subject of that memory – I find it funny that you defend the kids against Snape but don’t take into account their feelings or opinions towards him. Harry saw that “singular and biased memory” that you hold so much contempt for. He saw it and he came out on Snape’s side. Harry has more reason to hate Snape than almost anyone else in Hogwarts, and yet he still felt pity for Snape after he saw that memory.
James saved Snape’s life, when Sirius pulled that ‘prank’ of telling him about Remus. Endangering his own life in doing so. (Because he couldn’t have changed into a stag in the tight corridor to the Shrieking Shack.) He didn’t want Snape dead. He just couldn’t fucking stand that stupid racist dick, who was so lucky to call Lily his friend and spoiled his chances of being friends with her as well.
He saved Remus from being a murderer. He saved Sirius a trip to Azkaban. I’m not saying James would have been fine with murder, but he doesn’t save Snape out of the “goodness of his heart and soul” or whatever people want to pretend. He saves Snape to get his friends out of the hole they’ve dug themselves into. If he gave a fuck about Snape, he’d stop bullying him. But the memory we see (you know, the one where he washes Snape’s mouth out with soap, hangs him upside down, uses him as blackmail material, and then sexually harrasses him in front of witnesses, all because Snape happened to be in the vicinity and James was bored) happens AFTER the werewolf incident.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: not being okay with murdering another student does not earn you a gold star.
BUT if we’re using it as a gold star standard…. Let’s talk about how Snape saves Sirius and Remus’ lives even though he hates their guts. Let’s talk about how Snape reaches out to Dumbledore, someone he knows will protect James, even though he hates James’ guts. Let’s talk about how Snape saves the lives of Hogwarts students over and over again even though he doesn’t like them much. If you want to use the “well he REALLY HATED THEM but still SAVED THEM ANYWAY” argument, Snape’s in that corner as much as James is.
The only reason he has to treat Neville so poorly is that the prophecy could have been about him instead, and had it been that way Lily would not have died. But had Lily not been targeted, Snape would have never switched sides and would have continued being a death eater.
Once again, show me where he says that. His treatment of Neville could have a thousand different reasons – and I’m not saying the prophecy doesn’t factor into it, but we don’t even know if SNAPE knows that Neville was a candidate? (He might, he might not.) He might hate Neville because Neville routinely blows shit up in his class, endangering himself and the other students.
Snape didn’t join the DE because he believed in their rhetoric. He joined the DE for power – power that he might not have craved so much if the Marauders hadn’t made him their punching bag for seven years straight. (But why talk about the consequences of their actions when you’re so determined that their bullying was justified?)
He outed one of her best friends and his condition to the world, making it impossible for the guy to hold down a job, basically ruining his life (and every other werewolf in England). Talk about petty.
Remus Lupin is not from the LGBT community (in canon) so please stop using outing as a term to describe Snape telling people about his being a werewolf. Lupin is literally working for the Order within the next book, so obviously it’s not “impossible for the guy to hold down a job” oh my god. And Snape doesn’t ruin everything for all werewolves in Europe oh my god. Way to put the blame for societal prejudice on ONE GUY jesus christ. Maybe blame the wizarding world instead? You know, the people who actually DO make it impossible for all werewolves to hold down jobs????
James Potter was an arrogant, privileged son of a bitch who ended up changing his tune and turning his life around when he realized there were more important things to life than his own interests. He joined an Order focused on fighting oppression and creating equality. He became a solid, kind man (though still sassy af because he’s James Fucking Potter) that LILY EVANS fell in love with. She wasn’t forced to marry the guy.
He was a good father, a good friend, and everyone who knew him well loved him, as is stated several times in the book.
Except by Snape, bitter bastard.
Honey boo, James Potter never changed his tune as far as Snape is concerned. He just got better at hiding it. He continued to bully Snape into their seventh year, behind Lily’s back – as Remus and Sirius, your precious sources on James, attest.
More to the point, we have no fucking clue who James Potter was as an adult. Your description of him – solid, kind, sassy af – that’s all headcanon. The only time we see James Potter, adult, is when he’s a ghost and that’s… not really an accurate portrait. He died for his family, he was part of the Order – doubtless he had morals and he was a decent person. But please stop this idea that a decent person can’t also be a bully, a braggart, and have flaws.
Also like…. James Potter died young, a martyr. Of course no one’s going to say bad things about him to the son he died for. Of course his best friends are going to sing his praises to the moon and back and only remember the good stuff he did? That was the POINT of the goddamn PENSIEVE MEMORY you bleeding idiot. It was to show that, hey, people can be biased – that even if Snape is biased about James so are Sirius and Remus. James is as much the braggart and bully in Snape’s memory as he is the good man who died for his family. Stop trying to sweep the bad shit he did under the rug by saying trite stuff like “he grew out of it and changed.” Show me where. Show me how. Nothing in the books suggests that he grew out of it other than Remus and Sirius saying so. They’re not objective sources.
Also might Snape be a bitter bastard about James… Because James tormented him for seven years…. Just for existing? Might Snape justifiably hate James because James treated him like shit just because he could? What kind of bullshit argument says “well everyone who James liked loved him and the person James bullied hated him, so OBVIOUSLY that person is just Wrong” oh my god.
Finally, ship bashing is stupid. But then the people who made this post are obviously just working on fandom rhetoric that has little to no basis in canon, so why are we surprised?
(( OOC: Alright, I’ll respond to this, since some really good points were made that I’d like to discuss:
I want you to show me where Severus Snape says “yes, I want James and Harry to die” or gives any indication that he cares less about their lives than Lily’s.
He knows Dumbledore isn’t going to let James and Harry die! This is Dumbledore and he’s proven time and time again how much he cares about James’ life. Snape goes that extra mile not just to get assured protection for Lily, but protection for her entire family.
Yes… Snape goes to Dumbledore to beg for Lily’s life, and Dumbledore makes an assumption concerning his intentions… Because Snape was the one who told Voldemort about the prophecy in the first place. Even if Snape didn’t know the prophecy was about Harry (although by that time, James and Lily had already defied Voldemort three times, so he was very likely aware that this was an option) he was still sentencing a child to death by sharing this information with Voldemort. As for the assumption that Snape goes to Dumbledore knowing Dumbledore will protect James… that is also reading into his intentions, just on the opposite end of the spectrum.
There is nothing shown to indicate that Severus would care to save James. Every word Severus ever utters about James is steeped in negativity (before and after his death). On top of that, the two men were on opposing sides of a war. Snape could have gone to Dumbledore to protect James as well as Lily, but it doesn’t seem likely that his intentions would stretch that far, especially considering the fact that he was already involved with dark witches and wizards who were indifferent to the lives of people based purely on their blood status. That kind of ideology has a tendency to rub off, especially if he’s supporting the cause by joining. He cared for Lily, and he knew Voldemort would most likely kill her since she was a muggleborn witch, so he could have easily gone to Dumbledore purely because of his desire to save her (not trusting Voldemort to keep his promise), while not caring at all about James’ or Harry’s wellbeing. In this instance, both options are simply speculation. Both opinions can be supported, so let’s not pretend that it’s one or the other.
Pensieve memories aren’t biased.
The bias comes from the fact that it is only showing one moment and basing an entire character in that one moment. There’s no excuse for the way James and Sirius behave, in this moment they are complete and total assholes. However, Severus and James are mutual enemies.
I’ll admit that James and Sirius were the ones who began the rivalry when they first insulted Snape (based off of a mutual disdain for each other’s preferred houses in James and Severus’s case, and probably a disdain for the dark arts from Sirius having grown up around dark witches and wizards), but as it progresses, they both become active participants, going out of their way to cause each other grief. Their relationship is considered the equivalent of Draco and Harry, mutual disdain and active harassment on both ends.
Furthermore, the tension of war could easily have played a factor in their continued rivalry as they were not only enemies in school, but also choosing sides in the upcoming war. Severus was spending time with people who were dedicated to prejudiced ideology, and James, a pureblood wizard (growing up in a privileged, pureblood society), was doing the opposite in spite of his high-society upbringing.
He saved Remus from being a murderer. He saved Sirius a trip to Azkaban. I’m not saying James would have been fine with murder, but he doesn’t save Snape out of the “goodness of his heart and soul” or whatever people want to pretend. He saves Snape to get his friends out of the hole they’ve dug themselves into.
Once again, an assumption on the opposite end of the spectrum. Yes, James had a lot of reasons to save Snape aside from just saving him, however it could also have been just to save him, because perhaps, regardless of their rivalry, he wouldn’t want him to be killed (just like Harry wouldn’t want Draco to be killed, regardless of the animosity between them). Severus was the one who assumed that James did it to avoid being expelled, and hated being in his debt.
James would taunt and humiliate Severus, however nothing shows that he ever did anything to truly, physically injure him (as opposed to Severus, who created and used Sectumsempra following his humiliation at the hands of James and Sirius.)
Let’s talk about how Snape saves Sirius and Remus’ lives even though he hates their guts.
Except for the fact that Severus almost allows Sirius (and even hopes for Remus) to receive the dementor’s kiss… a fate WORSE than death, knowing that Sirius was innocent of the crime he was condemned and sentenced for (having been in Voldemort’s army and knowing Peter was the traitor). Yes, Sirius nearly got Severus killed by a werewolf, but that doesn’t excuse Snape’s actions anymore than Sirius’s.
His treatment of Neville could have a thousand different reasons – and I’m not saying the prophecy doesn’t factor into it, but we don’t even know if SNAPE knows that Neville was a candidate?
Snape emotionally abused (yes, abused) a CHILD who had already endured the loss of his parents at the hands of an organization that Snape was apart of. He was also a child that could have been murdered because of Severus’s decision to reveal the prophecy to Voldemort.
Neville is so afraid/traumatized that his boggart, his greatest fear, is manifested as his potions teacher. This is coming from a child who had his parents tortured to insanity…
Setting aside any reasoning for Snape’s actions towards Neville… that’s just fucked up.
Snape didn’t join the DE because he believed in their rhetoric. He joined the DE for power.
Regardless… he joined an organization bent on dehumanizing and murdering people like Lily… something Lily continually begged him not to do. There are other ways to gain power without resorting to joining a supremacist group.
power that he might not have craved so much if the Marauders hadn’t made him their punching bag for seven years straight.
Snape also had friends that were bullies… friends that went as far as to attack Mary, a muggleborn student. I’m sure he wasn’t always completely alone… nor was he an inanimate object that couldn’t fight back, or attack without provocation as well.
(But why talk about the consequences of their actions when you’re so determined that their bullying was justified?)
The Marauders’ bullying wasn’t justified. They were stupid and destructive… ALL of them, but that includes Severus.
Remus Lupin is not from the LGBT community (in canon) so please stop using outing as a term to describe Snape telling people about his being a werewolf.
Remus Lupin and his condition are a metaphor for the HIV/AIDS epidemic. Also… if we’re getting picky about wording now, Voldemort was not “racist” as you put it, he was a blood purist.
Lupin is literally working for the Order within the next book, so obviously it’s not “impossible for the guy to hold down a job”
Except for he couldn’t find a job outside of fighting in a war where men were needed, organized and run by people that he was friends with. His options were pretty limited there.
And Snape doesn’t ruin everything for all werewolves in Europe oh my god. Way to put the blame for societal prejudice on ONE GUY jesus christ.
I’ll admit, I went a little overboard with that one, but his actions towards Remus certainly don’t help. Parents finding out that a werewolf had been teaching their children for an entire year was bound to stir up a lot of widespread fear, especially at one of the most renowned wizarding schools in the country.
James Potter never changed his tune as far as Snape is concerned. He just got better at hiding it. He continued to bully Snape into their seventh year, behind Lily’s back.
And Severus continued to do the same to James. He wasn’t some innocent bystander. They were RIVALS.
More to the point, we have no fucking clue who James Potter was as an adult. Your description of him – solid, kind, sassy af – that’s all headcanon. The only time we see James Potter, adult, is when he’s a ghost and that’s… not really an accurate portrait. He died for his family, he was part of the Order – doubtless he had morals and he was a decent person. But please stop this idea that a decent person can’t also be a bully, a braggart, and have flaws.
We DO get to see both James and Sirius as adults (while Lily is pregnant) during the war after they join the order (in a short scene written by Rowling)… And they are indeed both sassy af.
I never said James wasn’t flawed, but every mention of James, minus Severus, states that James changed dramatically by his seventh year and on. His actions indicate this as well. He joined an organization focused on equality, he took in and supported Remus when Remus couldn’t find a job. Lily Evans, a girl who was not afraid to call him out on his shit, and didn’t give him the time of day until his sixth and seventh year, chose to marry him. This indicates that he grew enough as a person for her to respect him.
Once again, I understand his actions didn’t change towards Severus, however, we don’t know if the bullying lessened significantly, we just know that it continued (for whatever reasons). Snape and James were on opposite sides of a war (growing further and further apart in their ideals) and hated each other mutually for their entire childhood. There was probably a lot of fear and tension involved for both of them that lead to continued harassment.
Also like…. James Potter died young, a martyr. Of course no one’s going to say bad things about him to the son he died for. Of course his best friends are going to sing his praises to the moon and back and only remember the good stuff he did? That was the POINT of the goddamn PENSIEVE MEMORY you bleeding idiot. It was to show that, hey, people can be biased – that even if Snape is biased about James so are Sirius and Remus. James is as much the braggart and bully in Snape’s memory as he is the good man who died for his family. Stop trying to sweep the bad shit he did under the rug by saying trite stuff like “he grew out of it and changed.” Show me where. Show me how. Nothing in the books suggests that he grew out of it other than Remus and Sirius saying so. They’re not objective sources.
But he did change, minus his actions towards Snape, something that is stated by Rowling. This doesn’t mean he lost all of his unsavory tendencies, but he (Rowling claims) deflated his head during his 7th year and stopped acting like such an ass, while Snape slipped further and further into the dark arts.
The change may have had something to do with James losing his mother, which happened in their final year at Hogwarts. That would definitely bring some perspective to his world (or reality crashing down).
Also, Remus and Sirius are not objective sources, but neither is Severus.
Also might Snape be a bitter bastard about James… Because James tormented him for seven years…. Just for existing? Might Snape justifiably hate James because James treated him like shit just because he could?
… Once again… Snape was not an innocent bystander. The feelings were definitely mutual, along with the actions. Furthermore, James had several reasons to dislike Severus (although perhaps not good reasons)… Snape’s choice of house their first year, his choice of friends, his involvement in the dark arts, his friendship with Lily (jealousy), his actions towards Lily (the slur), his obsessive perusal of catching James and his friends “up to no good” in an attempt to get them expelled, the danger he posed the people that James cared about (Remus, Sirius and Lily), fear of the future and where their paths were leading, etc.
(( OOC: *chokes on own blood* OMfg No oOOOooooo ooo OOOO.
Severus Snape was not some helpless victim. He was just as bad as James, if not worse. They were MUTUAL enemies…
Severus was involved in the dark arts from a young age, he chose to believe in ideology that was filled with baseless hatred, he obsessed over a woman that didn’t want him, to the point where he was willing to have her husband and child MURDERED so he could have her to himself. He obsessed over her even after her death, and then abused her child. He outed one of her best friends and his condition to the world, making it impossible for the guy to hold down a job, basically ruining his life (and every other werewolf in England). Talk about petty.
Oh… but “Always.”
Okay.
James Potter was an arrogant, privileged son of a bitch who ended up changing his tune and turning his life around when he realized there were more important things to life than his own interests. He joined an Order focused on fighting oppression and creating equality. He became a solid, kind man (though still sassy af because he’s James Fucking Potter) that LILY EVANS fell in love with. She wasn’t forced to marry the guy.
He was a good father, a good friend, and everyone who knew him well loved him, as is stated several times in the book.
Except by Snape, bitter bastard.
Also… that little thing where James faced Voldemort without a wand and willingly sacrificed his life to save his family. Yeah… that happened. ))
Finally, ship bashing is stupid. But then the people who made this post are obviously just working on fandom rhetoric that has little to no basis in canon, so why are we surprised?
And yet ship bashing is what the anon brought to the table to begin with… on a blog that has openly shipped Jily since its conception. *shrugs*
Snape and Lily were never in a romantic relationship, so the only thing to focus on is their friendship… “Hey… I care about you… but I’m going to hang out with people that dehumanize you based on your blood status, continually ignore your advice, degrade you in public for helping me because I’m humiliated, and join an organization that wants you dead.” Talk about toxic. I won’t begrudge anyone for shipping what they like, but romanticizing toxic relationships without acknowledging that they are toxic and damaging is concerning.
To conclude… you dig Snape, I dig James, and both for different reasons. *shrugs* Guess I’ll leave it at that.
to conclude:
Lily: *waiting for James to get out of the shower*
Lily: *hears him singing*
Lily: Will you quit singing?
James: WHAT?
Lily: QUIT SINGING. IT’S LAME.
James: WOMAN.
James: WHEN I’M IN THE SHOWER TWO THINGS GET TO BE FREE
James: MY BALLS
James: AND MY SOUL.
Lily: what?
James: nothing, just you look so hot when you’re annoyed by me
Lily: then I must appear to you like a freaking goddess 24/7
james: hey lily
lily: yeah?
james:
james:
james: why do we look like we’re fifty year olds in the movies
Sirius: JAMES IS BACK FROM HIS HONEYMOON!!! James!! *runs to meet james*
James: SIRIUS! *runs to sirius*
Lily: *sighs* maybe someday he’ll love me like that…
askwhathasthiscometo 